Is your Church Apostate?

Apostate Church Special ** NEW ** (MARCH 2009)

(66 minutes)

What is the Apostate Church? Have many Churches really lost the plot? How can you know if your Church has really fallen away? A highly provocative and Bible-soaked discussion with Bible teacher Chris Hill.

Do you agree with what you have heard? Does it make you angry? Why not post a comment below and create a discussion?
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Comments :

Does Anyone Preach The True Gospel In Evangelism?

Interesting to listen to you all talking about the many deficiencies of the gospel given out by many in evangelism today.

Because of my own dissatisfaction with this, I set out to re-examine the gospel preached by both Peter and Paul in the NT and to compare it with what many preach today.

The result of my labours is and I would stress this is a very much work in progress rather than a completed work.

Any thought from others on how the site's content could be improved would be most welcome. I have a sample gospel message which endeavours to be as faithful as possible to the biblical model: and comments on this too would be welcomed.

Brian Johnson

The Gospel

Your intentions are sincere, I have now doubt, but do not forget that the Holy Spirit is at work and convicts the listener or the reader whenever what is said or written is in error. There is One God and one true church and there have been too many divisions and subdivisions already through the pride and arrogance of man. (Enid)

Just my own feelings and

Just my own feelings and thoughts, but as with most things in Church today, they are very far removed from the simplicity known and experienced by New Testament followers of the Way at the outset of Christianity. Looking at 1 Cor. 14-26 how I literally yearn for that sort of integrity in worship, and the assurance comfort and exhortation that is bound to come from togetherness in the Spirit of Christ. Frankly I detest formalised worship as much as I view with some uneasiness the shallowness of modern day chorus singing, and the general hullabaloo that passes for worship and praise. Much of this of course, is the world's influence within what purports to be the Body, and I cannot believe that it is in any way pleasing to God, that is, if He can hear it in the first place! Where is the humble servant of God who would dare to informalise a service, any church service, and dedicate it through the Spirit to Jesus Christ to whom we should minister first and formost? Who will encourage the total interaction of a group of Believers and seekers, one say, singing out loud a psalm, sharing a word, a tongue, in short sharing all things from the heart - and not through the key-board player and worship group? Sory if I sound a litle bit cynical here, but I assure you my heart is in the right place! Abraham Nottingham UK

A view from a newcomer

I was interested in your feelings about traditional vs modern worship. I detect a synicism and dismissiveness about modern 'hullaballoo worship' from you. Whilst the expression raised a chuckle within me, I thought that I should make the following short points;

1. Our own lovely church organs, used to assist in hymn singing were once new technology and 'hullaballoo'.
2. People express themselves in worship in many ways. Take a look at an African congregation! Exhuberance and overt expression in the praise of our Lord is their hallmark, leaping around in true faith. You cannot say that they are any less devoted than we in Europe are.
3. God knows our hearts better than we know ourselves. There is absolutely no obligation to sing hymns to follow our Lord Jesus Christ. Our own kind deeds and our belief the Jesus is the son of God and he died on the cross for us is our salvation.

There is nothing ungodly about modern music and worship. God knows what is in our hearts when we sing in praise. That is the measure of our devotion and that cannot be falsified whereas dressing up and singing some old hymns can be done by anyone.

It's all about what's in your hearts at the time.

what a coup, Chris Hill

Just wanted to say what a coup for S/P to get Chris Hill.
Chris is one of the very few sound Bible teachers left in Britain and I urge everyone to listen to what Chris is saying about the apostate church.
Get into the Word as Chris says, as it is the only way that a christian can have any chance against the wiles of the devil. Much of the church in this nation has gone into apostasy as Chris rightly explains in this discussion.
There are very few teachers whose exposition of the Word of God is of the quality of Chris and he does not pull any punches, but it is told with a real passion and tenderness in the love of God.
PS Chris did not pay me and this exaltation will not go to his head.

The vast majority of the Christian church is Apostate today!

Just as it was with the OT Judges 21:25, " the Christian Church has NO KING and everyone does what is right in their own eyes".
There are very few Churches today that hold to Biblical Truth, let alone allow more than 15 minutes to preach Gods Word. Most have demoted, or even replaced preaching the Word, with a mere 5 minute talk.
So called worship predominates their time with repetative rock music, with chorus's sung over and over again like a mantra, with little sense to what is being said, plus maybe some drama sketches, rythmic dance or flag waving ministry.
Alpha, purpose driven, toronto blessing and the recent so called florida outpouring show the true state of a church which has sold out Jesus.
It cost Jesus His life to reconcile us to God but much of the church in Britain today peddle's a cheap christianity.
Lament and Repent! This is our only HOPE!


What's wrong with Alpha, in your opinion, please?


(from Enid) Too often, the blind are leading the blind and brand new travellers on that great road are left not properly fed.

Wise words indeed

Wise words indeed

In reply to the other guest

In reply to the other guest comments - can the writer point me to the scriptures that states how long a service or sermon should be? Sadly it is the many traditionalists that have embedded and / or convinced many in todays church that a prayer / hymn /prayer/sermon sandwich is what God wants and anything less than a 45 minute sermon and hymns from the late 1800's is heresy.

The church has many of its problems today because of this restricted vision and their hanging on to their own man made service format.

How long!!

If you can explain to me how a preacher is suppossed to correctly divide the word of truth in a 10 minute sermonette slipped in between the 45 MINUTES of worship, the 10 minute "give us your money speil" and the 30 minutes of 'ministry', i will tell you the verse that states how long a sermon should be. If you read the old testament the Jews read the Torah taught the Torah and then worshipped. There is no doxology without corect theology because we must worship in spirit and in TRUTH. If there is no truth, there is no true worship, just noise. Most worship today is centred on the Holy Spirit (or just how cool my last guitar solo was) not Christ so its very foundation is flawed, illustrating the point that without correct teaching there is no worship.

Everone did what was right in his own eyes!

In reply to my friend, I should point out that the preaching and teaching of the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes Rom1v16, and urge my friend not to be ashamed of the gospel of Christ.
I should also state that contrary to my friends assumption that I am a tradionalist, I am in fact a bible believing, born again, baptised in the Holy Spirit, Biblical pentecostal christian, who knows that without the preaching and teaching of God's Word and the Gospel of Christ, 45 minutes or more of repetative worship songs with a chorus sung over, and over, and over again, has no impact on the salvation of the lost and does nothing more than make someone hyped up and feeling good!
shalom my brother and I urge you to get into The Word.

Thank you for for the reply

Thank you for for the reply to my post. There is many assumption by the poster in his reply. Firsty that I am commending 45 minutes (or more!) of repetetive worship songs (though i am yet to see an example of what this means - apart from a fear by traditionalists of modern worship songs) . There is also the 'old nutshell' that anything other than one's preferred worship service format - then anybody else must be 'ashamed of the Gospel'. A far cry from reality for many and one that shows sadly a person who must be on the attack from the off . We are well into the word (for the posters information). I just ask the poster to re-iterate please his reasoning in his initial post that there is a set time pattern for worship / the word - - 15 minutes for example was suggested as short... how many minutes would he recommend and why!? I'd rather have a powerful 10 minutes that a weak 45 minutes any day of the week.

worship in the bible?

It is interesting to note that one of the first mentions of the word "worship" in the Bible is when God told Abraham to take Isaac up to Mt Moriah and offer him as a burnt offering, telling the two young men that they were going to worship.
I should point out that neither Abraham or Isaac was carrying a musical instrument, at least the text does not mention any, but maybe the knife that Abraham had was to carve out a flute from the wood they were had for worship!
I appologise for not clarifying that I did not mean to suggest there should be any set time limit, or prescibed time for the preaching of the Word when led by the Holy Spirit, but so often today we see worship being used to manipulate the direction of a meeting, through a so called worship leader.
The worship leader is, and should be the Holy Spirit, not man!
I am deeply concerned for younger christians and believe the crux of the problem of "apostacy" coming into the church today, is firstly the consequence of teaching and preaching of Word being limited, as the servant to music/ praise/ worship time.
Secondly, that the world has come into the church rather than vice versa.
The Word should not be treated as an accompaniment to worship but be the primary focus of every christian meeting.

We are very much in agreement

We are very much in agreement in everything from the 3rd paragraph down...(in reality that didn't really take too long did it).

I'll assume the opening paragraph and use of Abraham and Isaac as an example as to why we now shouldn't have musical instruments was an attempt at a joke - if so it made me smile at least in its poor application ;-)..

I suspect my church will be surprised when i turn up with one of my sons on Sunday - with him carrying the kindling wood, me a (hollowed out flute like ) knife and perhaps a quick phone call to the worship leader to ensure lamb is available just in case!